at a zero-to-eighteen-month level of a typical development (article use)

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And my answer would be "He's on the second floor". A man can only be in one place at one time. Your question does not need to elicit the information that we're talking about the building on the right because that's where we can see him. That building has only one second floor.

I'm not asking about the floor of that building. There are five buildings in the picture (I mistakenly wrote on the picture earlier) and, therefore, five second floors. The man is on one of these five = He's on a second floor. This is all my question is about.
What the point of the questions is.

I think the answer you want me to give here is: He's on a third floor. Is that what you mean?

That's my point! See my reply to emsr2d2 above.
 
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Okay, good. That's my point too. I hope we've gotten somewhere.

Definitely and... unfortunately, because this is the very point where I'm stuck. When I think about English levels, I can imagine only one 'building' we, learners, all live in. I understand that this picture misleads me, but I just can't think of more than one now. Maybe I just need some time to process all this information.
 
And my answer would be "He's on the second floor". A man can only be in one place at one time. Your question does not need to elicit the information that we're talking about the building on the right because that's where we can see him. That building has only one second floor.

I'm not asking about the floor of that building. There are five buildings in the picture (I mistakenly wrote on the picture earlier) and, therefore, five second floors. The man is on one of these five = He's on a second floor. This is all my question is about.
The answer to the question is, as emsr2d2 said, "He's on the third floor" (in American English). No native speaker would use the indefinite article regardless of what you think. Just accept that and move on.
 
Maybe I just need some time to process all this information.

I've thought it over and come up with an explanation. I'm not saying it's universal or exhaustive.

Temperatures and levels are parts of open-ended structures. You can always add one more degree or develop your command of any language. Floors, on the other hand, are mostly parts of closed structures:

article4.png

A building under construction can be considered an open-ended structure, which allows me to tell somebody the news that I've build a second floor. To be clear, open-endness is not an inherent feature of such a building itself. It's all about the listener's knowledge. If the listener already knew the second floor was under construction, it would become part of a closed information structure.
 
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No one is saying that it's not possible to put the words "a", "second" and "floor" in that order in a sentence, but we are talking about your original context. It remains the case that when describing someone's location, we say "on the ground/first/second etc floor".
None of the examples you linked to are preceded by a preposition. The second link goes only to the hits for "build a second floor". If you remove "build" and simply search for "a second floor", you will notice that none of the example sentences include "on a second floor".
 
The trouble with that is that we say 'the second floor'.

You're fighting a losing battle, Alexey.
I have no problem with Alexey's "I've built a second floor."

But I'd rather advise on ordinary written or spoken usage than thumb-wrestle over exceptions. This is English. There are exceptions to everything.
 
The second link goes only to the hits for "build a second floor". If you remove "build" and simply search for "a second floor", you will notice that none of the example sentences include "on a second floor".

I've found such examples:

1. Fifty workers and customers huddled for safety on a second floor as it was raked with bullets.
https://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/16/...r-store-owners-fear-fundamentalists-rise.html

2. The clinic is not more than a warren of rooms on a second floor that is reached only by stairs, making it a daunting climb for weakened patients.
https://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/18/world/as-aids-ravages-caribbean-governments-confront-denial.html

3. He said police first photographed him for a biometrics database, took him down a long cinderblock hallway on a second floor, and handcuffed him to a bench bolted to the floor.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/24/chicago-homan-square-black-site

This is English. There are exceptions to everything.

I really prefer the word explanation to exception.

 
Those are all good examples, Alexey. I think you've answered your own question. You're right. Sometimes using a is correct.

I'm satisfied with that. Well done!
 
Well, Alex proved me wrong.

The last thing I want is to prove anybody wrong. All I want is to master article usage. The examples above confuse me. I can't tell in what sense 'a second floor' represents open-endness there, if my idea of open-ended/closed structures makes any sense at all.
 
I've found such examples:

1. Fifty workers and customers huddled for safety on a second floor as it was raked with bullets.
https://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/16/...r-store-owners-fear-fundamentalists-rise.html

2. The clinic is not more than a warren of rooms on a second floor that is reached only by stairs, making it a daunting climb for weakened patients.
https://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/18/world/as-aids-ravages-caribbean-governments-confront-denial.html

3. He said police first photographed him for a biometrics database, took him down a long cinderblock hallway on a second floor, and handcuffed him to a bench bolted to the floor.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/24/chicago-homan-square-black-site

Hello, Alexey. I have read only the previous page of this long thread of yours and don't know all the details of the discussion, so I hope you won't judge me too hard if what I'm going to say was already said.

The examples in your quote are really intriguing for me as a learner. So naturally, just like you, I started to look for some explanation and I have a guess, though I don't know whether it's plausible. Could it be (I'm addressing this to the native speakers) that 'on a second floor' means in the contexts ' on another floor' and the writer didn't mean to explain to the readers the exact location of the floor in the building? Like 'a couple of minutes' doesn't necessarily mean exactly two minutes. I guess that if the writer had wanted to say definitely what the floor was, they should have used the definite article. If they didn't, then they probably didn't want to do this.

Just to clarify my thought... It seems to me that in the 1 and 3 examples the meaning of 'second' is 'another', while in the 2 the author wanted to convey the idea that the clinic was not particularly suitable for the patients because they should get over the stairs, but what exactly the floor was was probably unimportant for the writer. That could be the third or even fourth floor... That's only a guess. I don't know whether it's plausible and would be grateful if the others told me if it is or not.
 
Re: at a zero to eighteen month level of a typical development (article use)

I listened to her one more time. She doesn't really say a, just takes a little pause. I was misled by the subtitles.

What about a vs the before zero to eighteen month level?

You seem to prefer using perfect tense even when it is not indicated.
:-|
 
Re: at a zero to eighteen month level of a typical development (article use)

You seem to prefer using perfect tense even when it is not indicated.
:-|

"I have (just) listened to her one more time and realized I was misled by the subtitles when I listened to her for the first time." That's what I meant.

I hope you won't judge me too hard if what I'm going to say was already said.

Thank you, GeneD! Your idea is new and fresh. I'm eager to know what native speakers think about it.
 
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Re: at a zero to eighteen month level of a typical development (article use)

"I have (just) listened to her one more time and realized I was misled by the subtitles when I listened to her for the first time." That's what I meant.

I would say:

I just listened to her one more time ....
 
I've found [STRIKE]such[/STRIKE] these examples:

1. Fifty workers and customers huddled for safety on a second floor as it was raked with bullets.

2. The clinic is not more than a warren of rooms on a second floor that is reached only by stairs, making it a daunting climb for weakened patients.

3. He said police first photographed him for a biometrics database, took him down a long cinderblock hallway on a second floor. and handcuffed him to a bench bolted to the floor.
Number 1 is an editing error. It should use the.

Number 2 is about a particular second floor: one that's reached by stairs, not (for example) by a ramp.

There's not enough context to judge number 3, but it looks like the victim noted that the event took place on the second floor of a building without providing any more information about the building.
 
I've found [STRIKE]such [/STRIKE]these examples:

'Such examples' refers to 'the example sentences include "on a second floor"' in emsr's reply.

Number 2 is about a particular second floor: one that's reached by stairs, not (for example) by a ramp.

Do you mean 'the second floor' wouldn't be particular?

There's not enough context to judge number 3, but it looks like the victim noted that the event took place on the second floor of a building without providing any more information about the building.

This brings us back to the picture in #61. When I ask you 'What floor is the man on?', I don't mean 'Which floor of the rightmost building is the man on?' It's a different question, right? There are several buildings in the picture = several first floors, second floors, etc. Being just one of them is the only relevant characteristic of the floor. Nevertheless, native speakers say 'on the second/third floor.' The question is then, what's the difference between sentence number 3 and my floor example?
 

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This brings us back to the picture in #61. When I ask you 'What floor is the man on?', I don't mean 'Which floor of the rightmost building is the man on?' It's a different question, right? There are several buildings in the picture = several first floors, second floors, etc. Being just one of them is the only relevant characteristic of the floor. Nevertheless, native speakers say 'on the second/third floor.' The question is then, what's the difference between sentence number 3 and my floor example?

Following the logic of your example, the indefinite article should be used, but, as I can see, the native speakers here don't want to do that. Then I conclude that using the+floors is simply idiomatic.

Am I mistaken feeling that the native speakers would rather use the in all the three examples of post 78? :) If they feel that the should have been used there, it's convincingly enough for me personally to follow their advice. Who knows? Maybe the writers of those articles were simply showing off with their creativeness? Wanted something new notwithstanding that it's odd?

Hence the questions to the others:
Do you find the indefinite article unnatural in those examples?
And if you find it natural there, could you please explain why the authors preferred it over the?
 
Maybe this thread will shed some light on the issue? It's about a+ordinal numbers. Not about a+floors, unfortunately, but yet it can be of some help, I think.
 
Hello, Alexey. I have read only the previous page of this long thread of yours and don't know all the details of the discussion, so I hope you won't judge me too hard if what I'm going to say was already said.

The examples in your quote are really intriguing for me as a learner. So naturally, just like you, I started to look for some explanation and I have a guess, though I don't know whether it's plausible. Could it be (I'm addressing this to the native speakers) that 'on a second floor' means in the contexts ' on another floor'

Good idea, but no, definitely not.

and the writer didn't mean to explain to the readers the exact location of the floor in the building
? Like 'a couple of minutes' doesn't necessarily mean exactly two minutes. I guess that if the writer had wanted to say definitely what the floor was, they should have used the definite article. If they didn't, then they probably didn't want to do this.

In that case, we'd say something like "another floor" or "a different floor" or "a separate floor."


Just to clarify my thought... It seems to me that in the 1 and 3 examples the meaning of 'second' is 'another', while in the 2 the author wanted to convey the idea that the clinic was not particularly suitable for the patients because they should get over the stairs, but what exactly the floor was was probably unimportant for the writer. That could be the third or even fourth floor... That's only a guess.

And a good one!


I don't know whether it's plausible and would be grateful if the others told me if it is or not.
When you're talking about a particular second floor, it's the. When you're talking about a generalized second floor, it's a. The only reason we're cautioning against a is that the first is much more likely than the second. We don't often use second floor in a generalized sense, unless it's an adjective phrase, like a second-floor apartment. So on first glance, a just looks strange.

But Alexey is right. Both are possible, and a is natural in the right context.
 
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