at a zero-to-eighteen-month level of a typical development (article use)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Alexey86 said:
What example would be more suitable for analysis?
Click to expand...

Can we refresh for clarity, please? The thread is getting long and harder to follow.

What exactly do we want to analyse? Why? What kind of analysis do we want to do?
 
Alexey86 said:
I haven't seen a grammar guide saying "Forget logic when you're choosing what article to use because common sense trumps logic [STRIKE]in[/STRIKE] 99% of the time".
Click to expand...
Of course not, because it's not true. Read what I said in #40 again.
 
jutfrank said:
Can we refresh for clarity, please? The thread is getting long and harder to follow.

What exactly do we want to analyse? Why? What kind of analysis do we want to do?
Click to expand...

I mean an example with a/an NP that might seem unique, while in fact it can easily represent just an instance. If you remember, at first I thought there could be only one 0-18 month level of typical development. That's why "a 0-18 month..." confused me. Then, you suggested thinking of it as an instance, which I tried to do in #32. I coupled the level example with the temperature one because a 100-degree temperature might seem unique too. I mean there's only one 100-degree point on the scale. So, I tried the way you suggested:

1) Water boils at a 100-degree temperature = a temperature of 100 degrees = an instance of temperature equal to 100 degrees.
2) This child is at a 0-18-month level of typical development = a level of development typical for a 0-18-month child = an instance of a developmental level typical for a 0-18-month child.

Then you said (#42) the example was poor. That's why I ask you what example would serve better for analysis.
 
Re: at a zero to eighteen month level of a typical development (article use)

Alexey86 said:

I mean an example with a/an NP that might seem unique, while in fact it can easily represent just an instance.
Click to expand...

That's precisely what I tried to introduce with my example in post #13, which I tried to bring up again in post #24. I asked you two questions in that post, neither of which you answered. Here's my example again:

He's at an intermediate level.

I chose this as an example because it's something I do say and therefore something I'm sure of the meaning of. It's also a good example because EFL teachers do tend to think in terms of discrete levels—that is, that there is only one intermediate level, only one upper-intermediate level, only one advanced level, etc. It's also a good example to work with in that it is similar to the original example in post #1.
 
Re: at a zero to eighteen month level of a typical development (article use)

jutfrank said:
He's at an intermediate level.
Click to expand...

My try: There're many intermediate levels. He's at an instance of a level that can be described as intermediate.

Frankly, I still can't convince myself by this analysis. What makes it difficult for me to get the idea of an instance here is that I see English levels as a building's floors. If somebody asked me Where're you?, I could reply I'm on the fifth floor, not on a fifth floor.

I've also found this thread (https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/threads/152237-speak-a-language-at-an-intermediate-level) where two English teachers say intermediate level doesn't require 'a' at all. I'm a bit confused.
 
Re: at a zero to eighteen month level of a typical development (article use)

Alexey86 said:
My try: There'[STRIKE]re[/STRIKE] are
many intermediate levels.
…

If somebody asked me Where[STRIKE]'re[/STRIKE] are you? ….
Click to expand...
Don't write "there're" except in quoted dialog. "Are" is stressed in "Where are you?" so no contraction is possible.
 
Re: at a zero to eighteen month level of a typical development (article use)

Alexey86 said:
Frankly, I still can't convince myself by this analysis.
Click to expand...

Okay, that's fair enough.

I've also found this thread (https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/threads/152237-speak-a-language-at-an-intermediate-level) where two English teachers say intermediate level doesn't require 'a' at all. I'm a bit confused.
Click to expand...

No, that's right. It doesn't. I'm not sure what you mean by 'require'.
 
Re: at a zero to eighteen month level of a typical development (article use)

jutfrank said:
Okay, that's fair enough.
Click to expand...

What's wrong with my floor metaphor? Would you suggest any helpful metaphor please?

jutfrank said:
No, that's right. It doesn't. I'm not sure what you mean by 'require'.
Click to expand...

5jj says ''No article is necessary there.'' I take it to mean that both intermediate level and an intermediate level are possible.

But level is a singular countable noun. We use articles with such nouns, except for cases like level five or page three. That's why I'm confused.
 
Last edited:
Re: at a zero to eighteen month level of a typical development (article use)

Piscean said:
If we know that a person is on the fifth floor of a building, we know precisely where they are. The floors are discrete; there is no overlapping.

If we know that a person's English is at intermediate level, we do not know precisely how good their English is. A person who has just reached this level may be only marginally better than a very good pre-intermediate-level person. Another might be almost at advanced level.

So, there is no precisely defined intermediate level in the way that there is a precisely defined fifth floor.
Click to expand...

But when we say that water boils at a temperature of 100 degrees Celsius, the temperature is precise, but we still use 'a'. That's what confuses me.
 
For me, "Water boils at a temperature of 100 degrees Celsius" is a shorter way of saying:

Water boils at a specific temperature. What temperature? 100 degrees Celsius.

The same construction appears all over the place. For example, "Planes generally fly at a height of 30,000 feet", "I will worry when he reaches a weight that equals his older sister's", "Motorways have a speed limit of 70mph".
 
Piscean said:
I'll let jutfrank deal with that. He has more patience and stamina than I.
Click to expand...

I understand. I would also leave this thread if it became a place only testing my patience and stamina.
 
Last edited:
emsr2d2 said:
For me, "Water boils at a temperature of 100 degrees Celsius" is a shorter way of saying:

Water boils at a specific temperature. What temperature? 100 degrees Celsius.
Click to expand...

I can apply this logic to the floor example: I'm on a certain floor. What floor? The fifth one. => I'm on the fifth floor.

So, why does a specific temperature lead us to a temperature of 100 degrees, while a certain floor doesn't lead us to a fifth floor?
Or, what am I missing?
 
Last edited:
Alexey86 said:
So, why does a specific temperature lead us to a temperature of 100 degrees, while a certain floor doesn't lead us to a fifth floor?
Or, what am I missing?
Click to expand...

I feel I'm failing dismally to explain this. I'll try one last approach, using your 'floor' analogy.

Let's leave naturalness aside completely for a moment and compare these two sentences:

He's on the fifth floor.
He's on a fifth floor.

What does the second sentence mean? Well, it can mean either of the following:

a) The building that he is in has more than one fifth floor, and he's on one of those fifth floors.
b) The building that he is in has only one fifth floor. This particular fifth floor is just one instantiation of many possible instantiations of fifth floors.

It seems to me that you are stuck in interpretation a), which obviously doesn't make a lot of sense. In fact, to go further, to you it makes no sense at all because in your 'floor' model, it is not possible for a building to have multiple fifth floors.

This should then lead you to adopt interpretation b), which is what I've been trying to suggest. Using the 'floor' analogy, we can imagine that the world consists of multiple buildings, all with fifth floors, and he's on one of them.

I really don't think I can put it any clearer than that.
 
jutfrank said:
b) The building that he is in has only one fifth floor. This particular fifth floor is just one instantiation of many possible instantiations of fifth floors.
Click to expand...

Three questions:
1) If I asked you what floor the man on the picture below is on (NOT: which floor of the rightmost building), what would you say?
2) If you were to ask me to show you any third floor, how would you do that (without any): Show me a third floor (my choice) or Show me the third floor?
3) If you use different articles with floor in 1) and 2), why?
floor2.jpg
 
Last edited:
Alexey86 said:
Three questions:
1) If I asked you what floor the man on the picture below is on (NOT: which floor of the rightmost building), what would you say?
2) If you were to ask me to show you any third floor, how would you do that (without any): Show me a third floor (my choice) or Show me the third floor?
3) If you use different articles with floor in 1) and 2), why?
View attachment 3661
Click to expand...

Sorry, I don't follow. (Nice pictures, by the way.)

Did you understand my point about how something can be one and many at once?
 
If you showed me that picture and said "Show me a third floor", I would point to one of the third floors that are visible. If you said "Show me the third floor", I would have to ask "Of which building?" If you asked me where the man was, I would be able to use the definite article - "He's at the left-hand window of the second floor of the building on the right".
 
Last edited by a moderator:
jutfrank said:
Did you understand my point about how something can be one and many at once?
Click to expand...

It would really help me to understand if you answered my questions above. What do you not follow exactly?
 
Last edited:
emsr2d2 said:
If you showed me that picture and said "Show me a third floor", I would point to one of third floors that are visible
Click to expand...

That's clear, thank you.

emsr2d2 said:
If you asked me where the man was, I would be able to use the definite article - "He's at the left-hand window of the second floor of the building on the right".
Click to expand...

But that's a different question! My question is What floor the man is on?
 
Alexey86 said:
But that's a different question! My question is What floor is the man [strike]is[/strike] on?
Click to expand...

And my answer would be "He's on the second floor". A man can only be in one place at one time. Your question does not need to elicit the information that we're talking about the building on the right because that's where we can see him. That building has only one second floor.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

A
The arrival of a large number of immigrants in the city has led to a zero-sum scenario.
Replies
14
Views
386
tedmc
T
S
  • Locked
What is your score for this text from zero to twenty?
Replies
1
Views
320
Barque
B
G
  • Locked
COVAX has zero checks, balances or enforcement mechanisms
Replies
4
Views
456
5jj
5jj
G
  • Locked
Will plans for new UK coal mine scupper net-zero ambitions at COP26?
Replies
1
Views
353
Tdol
T
A
  • Locked
How powerful do you need the/zero computers to be?
Replies
17
Views
3K
emsr2d2
emsr2d2
Back
Top