Shall

Despite my mother tongue is not english, I choose in disagreement.
I've read statements with shall, but are strange to find.

The word shall is found in formal writing I think:roll:

People do not usually use shall in conversations, nowadays:lol:

As per one of my recent posts:

I've been involved in writing many major international contracts in the past and use "shall ", "will" and "may", with very specific meanings, on a very regular basis - as Jose says, these are more formal situations.

The guidelines we have used are:

"shall" indicates that the Contractor shall (i.e. must) do X.

"will" indicates what we, as the client will do (because it's what we always do in such circumstances),

"may" indicates an option where the Contractor (or we) may do A or B depending on the circumstances at the time.

PS We already know they "can", otherwise we wouldn't have awarded them the contract!

Regards

(1) I usually use "shall" as the future of "should". Meaning that "Shall" (present) <=> "should" (preterit)

You shall do as I tell you.
You should do as I tell you.

Shall pressurizes 'you'. That's a obligation and even a threat.
Should advises 'you'. You should do that because that's good for you.

(2) Moreover, there's naturally a difference between "Shall" and "Will".

Will is more "a will" ("a want") => I will do it... Because I want.
Shall is more a strong intention and great pressure. => I shall do it... Because of something.

Will => 'll => won't (will not)
Shall => 'll => shan't (shall not).

Shall is rarely used, and this, more and more for a long time.

As a middle-aged speaker of Irish/British English, I find nothing out of the ordinary with 'shall', but only in the following contexts:

(1) in offers: Shall I make you a cup of tea?
(2) in suggestions: Let's start, shall we?
(3) in suggestions-cum-invitations: Shall we dance?
(4) in contract speak, as Neillythere points out, with a technical meaning
(5) very very rarely, stressed in strongly-felt obligation: You/He SHALL do it!

I was "schooled" as such:
The weatherman says "it will rain".
GOD says "it shall rain"!
......and to quote Mr. Brenner in "The King and I":
" So it is written, so it SHALL be done!"

I was "schooled" as such:
The weatherman says "it will rain".
GOD says "it shall rain"!
......and to quote Mr. Brenner in "The King and I":
" So it is written, so it SHALL be done!"

Today 'shall' is mostly used as a modal verb not as a tense auxilliary.

I think all right minded person with good education and sophasticated grooming, do use shall. It is only those who are not cultured enough and are less educated and come from less educated background detest the use of 'shall' and term it pompous and call using those person using it as "hmmmm what they are, some Royalty".

The teachers of English have got to improve their students by giving special attention about the usage of shall and should and also elaborate the difference between shall and should, and will and would. Atleast in India, teachers are good enough to do this and I am very very thankful to the right-thinking attitude of Indian teachers teaching English. I hope other parts of the world would follow the ideal example of Indian teachers. The Indian English writers are winning Booker prizes and it goes on to show the high standards of English prevelant in India.

SUDHKAMP said:

I think all right minded person with good education and sophasticated grooming, do use shall. It is only those who are not cultured enough and are less educated and come from less educated background detest the use of 'shall' and term it pompous and call using those person using it as "hmmmm what they are, some Royalty".

The teachers of English have got to improve their students by giving special attention about the usage of shall and should and also elaborate the difference between shall and should, and will and would. Atleast in India, teachers are good enough to do this and I am very very thankful to the right-thinking attitude of Indian teachers teaching English. I hope other parts of the world would follow the ideal example of Indian teachers. The Indian English writers are winning Booker prizes and it goes on to show the high standards of English prevelant in India.

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Yes SUDH, some very good novels have come out of India, and many Indians have impeccable English.
However, I wouldn't divide the English-speaking world into the right-minded and educated who use "shall" and the ignorami who hate and despise it. The vast majority of people who don't use "shall" have no feelings for it one way or the other - it's just not in their dialect. I don't think this makes them necessarily wrong-minded. There is no Commandment from on High saying "Thou shalt use Shall".

Raymott said:

Yes SUDH, some very good novels have come out of India, and many Indians have impeccable English.
However, I wouldn't divide the English-speaking world into the right-minded and educated who use "shall" and the ignorami who hate and despise it. The vast majority of people who don't use "shall" have no feelings for it one way or the other - it's just not in their dialect. I don't think this makes them necessarily wrong-minded. There is no Commandment from on High saying "Thou shalt use Shall".

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I do agree with you on the point, but the matter is, why these 'natives' do not know the proper usage of English. It is just because their teachers have not taught them properly. I am commenting more on the system than the people. Perhaps these 'natives' are lagging behind in learning English because they are not having good 'native teachers' back home.

SUDHKAMP said:

I do agree with you on the point, but the matter is, why these 'natives' do not know the proper usage of English. It is just because their teachers have not taught them properly. I am commenting more on the system than the people. Perhaps these 'natives' are lagging behind in learning English because they are not having good 'native teachers' back home.

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By "natives", I take it you mean the British or the English. You have to remember also that there are many strange dialects, accents, even syntactical variants that the less educated country people in England speak. This would have some effect on the linguistic competence of the entire population as a whole, whereas in places such as India and Australia, one standard variety of English was taught, and there was no linguistic interference from country yokels.

Raymott said:

By "natives", I take it you mean the British or the English. You have to remember also that there are many strange dialects, accents, even syntactical variants that the less educated country people in England speak. This would have some effect on the linguistic competence of the entire population as a whole, whereas in places such as India and Australia, one standard variety of English was taught, and there was no linguistic interference from country yokels.

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Is that why the standard of English is very very high in India and Australia compared to the 'natives'. Also, my friends who have settled abroad and even those 'natives' I have come across, are mostly waiters in restaurant, taxi-drivers, wage workers etc., I mean to say you cannot expect a high standard English from such people. Whereas in India all those who know English have Medical Degrees(Doctors), Engineers, Lawyers, IT professionals, MBAs, Bank Employees, Insurance agents and officers etc. And they have a very conducive atmosphere to speak a real good standard English. That is why when you use "shall" in India, there are no illiterate or semi-literate to laugh upon the usage of such words. It is not a pompous usage in India. Perhaps other countries including "natives" have got to improve their standard of English. It is only through economic success that you can improve the standard of living, thinking, education and speech.

MikeNewYork said:

Shalln't I? :shock:

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I think the proper use of shall not is sha'nt . Correct me if im wrong :]

I still use 'shall' otherwise than in questions. I have voted to say that it is mostly used only in questions, which I believe to be the case.

Bust3rboi said:

I think the proper use of shall not is sha'nt . Correct me if im wrong :]

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Yes, you are almost right, it's 'shan't'.

bhaisahab said:

Yes, you are almost right, it's 'shan't'.

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Bhaisahab, can you please give the reason for such usages like "shan't" and are not being pronounced "i'nt"(are'nt)!

To the best of my knowledge aren't is pronounced 'are'nt' by some speakers (myself included) and 'arnt' by others. I honestly don't know why.;-)

shall we go ?